The Sundering of the Community - UB Anet's Double-Edged Sword

[Crom The Pale]

No matter how good UB is, people will get bored of using it and will play with other skills.

Maybe they will want a challenge and maybe they will find a combo that works much better in a team environment than just UB.

I am certain some few will run this skill and only this skill until it gets a major nerf, but they are in the minority. It's a new skill and people love to latch onto the latest new thing that comes around.


Lastly while GW is leaps and bounds different from a console game there is a good reason why 90% of all console games have cheat codes built into them. People want them, and to sell the game the companies have to put them in. I am not saying that GW needs these, just that people are comparing PvE skills and consumables to god-mode.

Maybe next Anet will add an extreme mode with even higher difficutly and a single player death will kick the entire party out of the map.........anything is possible.

[manitoba1073]

Originally Posted by Marcus Ferret

As has been mentioned previously in this as well as other threads, some PvE skills (e.g. TNTF and Seed of Life) received a nerf when they were considered to be over-powered. Those skills however required a player to build around them as they provide only defense and heal, with no ability to cause damage to foes. UB on the other hand, causes armor-ignoring damage, knockdown+damage, and weakness+increased damage from allies within earshot. It is 5 skills in the guise of an elite which allows players to also add 7 other primary and secondary skills to their bar – this was clearly pointed out by Racthoh on his user talk page on the official wiki. (Cheers Racthoh)

Granted a player utilising UB without backup from other players will have difficulties soloing explorable area, but examine what happens in the Norn arena when I experimented last night:

Activate your Norn title rank, equip UB on the bar, change secondary to Ranger if necessary, equip Quickening Zephyr, pay Gellir Frostshield 100g to enter the Norn Fighting Tournament, drop QZ, activate UB, rush your opponent and spam 1, 2, 3. Time taken from first to last fight against Magni the Bison is less than 5 mins.

I equipped 2 skills, I repeat ‘equipped only 2 skills on my skillbar’, to beat a Norn whose Bear Form only gives him 250 additional health points + 25% more damage with each attack for 1 minute. Bison still has to use hammer skills and hit to cause the extra damage, while I could run around, keep him within my aggro bubble and press 1 whenever it recharged. None of the opponents in the arena stood a chance, and even Mhenlo whose Mending generally saves him from melee and physical damage was taken out before he could use the skill.

And you are fighting them 1vs1. How about you try to PM in game. Otherwise good post as usual. The problem isnt the skill as I've said before.

Which is why I even suggest a number of only usable in your groups. I said a maximum of only 3 active UB at a time. Before anyones says about setting any precedents look how Anet did with the Asuran summons.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Summon_Ice_Imp

Only 1 active at a time. Thats all Anet needs to do.



Free Wind- Yes we have finished the 4 horseman quest before with me as a 55. Yes that picture is old also. A few friends heard the rumor of the terror sheild and wanted to go hunting for 1 But that wasnt the time we did clear all FoW though.

[draxynnic]

To hopefully ward off some of the stereotyping...

I'm not sure I qualify as a casual player, but I'm certainly not hardcore. I've never even poked my nose into the Deep or the Warren. I poked my nose into the DoA when it was first made available, and promptly got it chopped off. In my career, I've found a grand total of 1 ecto and 3 shards. My primary is an 'unwanted' class (a Mesmer) and my next highest experience character is also an 'unwanted' class (Ranger).

I'm still wary of Ursan Blessing. Reasons:

First, I do intend to get my guild (for the record, not one of the big ones. We have about 3 regularly active members, and a handful of others) together at one stage once everyone's caught up in order to stomp them - even if it takes several tries. When I do so, I want to do it properly, not by using a godmode button. Furthermore, I'd prefer that achievement, once reached, not to be overshadowed by having everyone else just waltzing through with said godmode.

Okay, maybe that's being a little selfish that I'd like an achievement to actually mean something. But the second is, I think, a little more pertinent:

I really, really don't want to see high Norn titles become a prerequisite for groups. People have been saying that UB lowers the barrier for entry for 'casual' players - but as I've already stated I consider myself somewhere in the middle, and I certainly don't feel like I have the time to go grind a high title as a requirement for entry.

I think the main message here is: I'm not here in any fashion to protect my phat lewt from being undervalued by opening up areas to the masses - because I don't have phat lewt to protect. But I still don't like the idea of a superskill, PvE or not.

Oh, and manitoba? I think I have an idea of which critters you have in mind, and I see several problems with your test:

First, just because the monsters are so low-level reduces the value of the skill. Low armour and, if my suspicions are right, all the monsters being casters keeping their armour even lower means that the armour-ignoring nature of Ursan Strike actually starts to become a disadvantage. Against high-level mobs, it's a completely different story.

Second, if my suspicions are right, the mobs in question just happen to have one of the few skills that acts as a direct counter to UB. To use the 55 monk parallel, just because 55 monks fall in a heap against heavy enchantment removal doesn't stop them from being powerful when that enchantment removal is not present. Likewise, just because you've found one of the specific mobs that can counter UB doesn't mean it isn't overpowered against the 99% of mobs that don't throw Spirit Shackles.

Third, if I am right, the mobs in question are also throwing mostly armour-ignoring and degen - both of which ignore the armour boost from Ursan Blessing, and the latter doesn't even trigger energy gain from damage. This also has the side effect of meaning that the low level of the monsters matters less, because they're not relying on their level to punch through armour in the first place.

Fourth, your insistence that the player bring no other skills seems a cynical measure to ensure that anyone who took your challenge had absolutely no fallback position - while a genuine bear would have something under the blessing even if they didn't expect it to matter.

Finally, the concession has already been made that the bear does require healing backup, as it lacks its own self-healing. I don't think requiring some support stops a build or individual skill from being overpowered - there have been plenty of builds that required more support from the rest of the team to function that have been nerfed in the past.

So, in short: Just because the bear can't solo Twin Serpent Lakes (there, I said it...) doesn't exactly mean it can't possibly be overpowered. Heck, I treat that area with care even when I have a balanced hero/hench team along...

[manitoba1073]

Originally Posted by draxynnic

To hopefully ward off some of the stereotyping...

I'm not sure I qualify as a casual player, but I'm certainly not hardcore. I've never even poked my nose into the Deep or the Warren. I poked my nose into the DoA when it was first made available, and promptly got it chopped off. In my career, I've found a grand total of 1 ecto and 3 shards. My primary is an 'unwanted' class (a Mesmer) and my next highest experience character is also an 'unwanted' class (Ranger).

I'm still wary of Ursan Blessing. Reasons:

First, I do intend to get my guild (for the record, not one of the big ones. We have about 3 regularly active members, and a handful of others) together at one stage once everyone's caught up in order to stomp them - even if it takes several tries. When I do so, I want to do it properly, not by using a godmode button. Furthermore, I'd prefer that achievement, once reached, not to be overshadowed by having everyone else just waltzing through with said godmode.

Okay, maybe that's being a little selfish that I'd like an achievement to actually mean something. But the second is, I think, a little more pertinent:

I really, really don't want to see high Norn titles become a prerequisite for groups. People have been saying that UB lowers the barrier for entry for 'casual' players - but as I've already stated I consider myself somewhere in the middle, and I certainly don't feel like I have the time to go grind a high title as a requirement for entry.

I think the main message here is: I'm not here in any fashion to protect my phat lewt from being undervalued by opening up areas to the masses - because I don't have phat lewt to protect. But I still don't like the idea of a superskill, PvE or not.

Oh, and manitoba? I think I have an idea of which critters you have in mind, and I see several problems with your test:

First, just because the monsters are so low-level reduces the value of the skill. Low armour and, if my suspicions are right, all the monsters being casters keeping their armour even lower means that the armour-ignoring nature of Ursan Strike actually starts to become a disadvantage. Against high-level mobs, it's a completely different story.

Second, if my suspicions are right, the mobs in question just happen to have one of the few skills that acts as a direct counter to UB. To use the 55 monk parallel, just because 55 monks fall in a heap against heavy enchantment removal doesn't stop them from being powerful when that enchantment removal is not present. Likewise, just because you've found one of the specific mobs that can counter UB doesn't mean it isn't overpowered against the 99% of mobs that don't throw Spirit Shackles.

Third, if I am right, the mobs in question are also throwing mostly armour-ignoring and degen - both of which ignore the armour boost from Ursan Blessing, and the latter doesn't even trigger energy gain from damage. This also has the side effect of meaning that the low level of the monsters matters less, because they're not relying on their level to punch through armour in the first place.

Fourth, your insistence that the player bring no other skills seems a cynical measure to ensure that anyone who took your challenge had absolutely no fallback position - while a genuine bear would have something under the blessing even if they didn't expect it to matter.

Finally, the concession has already been made that the bear does require healing backup, as it lacks its own self-healing. I don't think requiring some support stops a build or individual skill from being overpowered - there have been plenty of builds that required more support from the rest of the team to function that have been nerfed in the past.

So, in short: Just because the bear can't solo Twin Serpent Lakes (there, I said it...) doesn't exactly mean it can't possibly be overpowered. Heck, I treat that area with care even when I have a balanced hero/hench team along...

Nope it. No degen where I'm talking about


Thats the point UB is not overpowered on its own. Its when you add all the others to it then the mass effect is overpowered.

[lishi]

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Nope it. No degen where I'm talking about


Thats the point UB is not overpowered on its own. Its when you add all the others to it then the mass effect is overpowered.

Nope is still overpowered by its own, you just notice more when you add 5 more.

anyway even is still true its still overpowered

[Orinn]

I'm having difficulty with the idea that the skill is overpowered, and yet a team build that can clear DoA FASTER than the UB team, is somehow just fine. I would definitely say that something is imbalanced there, since one method seems to be inherently faster.

Seriously, if someone doesn't like to use UB, nothing is forcing them to. Starting a team and putting out "Non-UB team LF <specific, cookie-cutter build>" isn't any harder than starting a team to play through UB. It very much does seem as though a certain mindset wants this skill nerfed, and nerfed hard, just to keep everyone else out of an area they can play, but few others can.

Sorry to step on territorial toes here, but one of the reasons the PvE skills were introduced int he first place was because areas like DoA are mostly dead. Certain specific builds were wanted, and no mesmers, sin, or rits need apply, ever. UB allows the classes that couldn't find a group to go in and actually play the areas. I think ANet made a huge mistake in calling areas "elite" to begin with. The whole entitlement thing, in reverse: the elite areas are MINE, and you can't come and play an easier build, because somehow that lessens my accomplishments.

Am I the only person who's honestly sick of coming to the forums and reading post after post of skills that someone thinks need nerfed? I can understand why high-end GvG needs balanced, and I've been told over and over that skill balancing is done with PvP primarily in mind. Why is anyone even considering asking for a nerf to a skill that they can choose not to play with, and that they are never forced to play AGAINST? Absurd, to me. Let teh people playing UB play UB. I played it on my dervish for about 2 weeks, then got bored with it. Truth be told, there are much more effective skills than UB for any bar, even if you count it as 5 skills (another absurdity, because while UB is up, you run only UB without the rest of your skillbar backing it up.)

If UB teams could clear the high-end areas faster than any other build, hands down, then it would be overpowered, but several people have stepped forward and said that not only is that not the case, but the truth is the exact opposite: an UB team can not achieve the times that some other team builds can. Take that fact into consideration before trying to claim that UB is overpowered, even with the synergy of a 6-ub and 2-monk team. It's still not even as good as a build that doesn't use UB, and it's certainly not better. What metric are people using for this supposed imbalance?

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by Orinn

I'm having difficulty with the idea that the skill is overpowered, and yet a team build that can clear DoA FASTER than the UB team, is somehow just fine. I would definitely say that something is imbalanced there, since one method seems to be inherently faster.

One takes more skill.

This does not change the fact that all PvE skills require changing or complete removal. That is the metric I use. My reasons have been made clear throughout.

[Orinn]

Originally Posted by Avarre

One takes more skill.

This does not change the fact that all PvE skills require changing or complete removal. That is the metric I use. My reasons have been made clear throughout.

The whole problem with the idea of taking more skill is that enough communication can compensate for skill. Can you take a SF elementalist, give him vent, and talk him through what s/he needs to do? Is that person playing skilfully?

This is why the whole "skill" argument is unconvincing: there is no way to define it unambiguously. Does 55'ing take skill? Does WvK farming take skill? 600-smite teams? The UB team is resilient: you can afford mistakes. Is that how you define skill: how detrimental a single mistake can be?

I don't care about UB personally. I am, however, puzzled about why people believe that a skill used in a completely non-competitive form is somehow threatening enough to them that they feel a need to call for it to be restricted or removed. This isn't even a game where players share an instance. Fairness is removed from the balance equation because it's not a competitive endeavor. Griefing is removed because the people who want to play without UB don't even have to SEE it being used in their group's own private instance. A team playing UB has ABSOLUTELY no effect on a team playing without it. The skill argument, I'll buy for PvP. There, skill is supposed to have a defining impact on the game. Skill determines the winners from the losers there. What does a "skillful" build offer besides challenge?

And why are people trying to force people away from a playstyle they enjoy, into one they don't? When this happens, then someone IS trying to directly and negatively impact other peoples' enjoyment of the game. If someone plays UB, and enjoys it, then it hurts nobody else to allow it. If UB gets nerfed because of posts like this, then it DOES impact people who enjoy playing the game.

It isn't a matter of balance, it's a matter of preference, and trying to dictate that one's personal preference should be the only valid one is something that I will argue against. When someone can tell me WHY UB teams that roll DoA slower than cookie-cutter teams with voice chat and perfect organization are bad for the game, I'll rethink it, but I don't think that the arguments hold up in a game where all instances are private, and the skill itself cannot be used in any competitive area.

[Marcus Ferret]

Originally Posted by Orinn

If UB teams could clear the high-end areas faster than any other build, hands down, then it would be overpowered, but several people have stepped forward and said that not only is that not the case, but the truth is the exact opposite: an UB team can not achieve the times that some other team builds can. Take that fact into consideration before trying to claim that UB is overpowered, even with the synergy of a 6-ub and 2-monk team. It's still not even as good as a build that doesn't use UB, and it's certainly not better. What metric are people using for this supposed imbalance?

Teams that are running a standard balanced build in elite missions have spent weeks, studying the area and working on builds. They adapted their skills and have learnt how to deal with certain spawns, how to pull mobs, positioning, etc., thus cutting down on their time. If these teams decided to run UB, believe me, they would cut their timing down even further.

Teams that currently utilise UB are new to such areas and missions. They are mostly PuG groups or guilds that have set foot in the area for the first time. Given time, they will adapt to the areas and be able to reduce the time it takes to clear an area as PvE spawns remain constant and therefore predictable. If they can't, then I am sorry to say that the skill level of such UB teams equals nil.

Btw, a team that comes up with a build to vanguish an elite area as well as the elite boss in the area holds title to that build. It becomes a 'cookie-cutter' build only when they share it with the general playing public and other players decide to adopt it for their own use. Once again, the choice is to adopt or create one's own build.

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by Orinn

The whole problem with the idea of taking more skill is that enough communication can compensate for skill. Can you take a SF elementalist, give him vent, and talk him through what s/he needs to do? Is that person playing skilfully?

Effective communication, in a team game, is half of skill. I've known incredible players who cannot communicate and as a result are sub-par in a full battle because the rest of the team cannot function as efficiently with them.

This is why the whole "skill" argument is unconvincing: there is no way to define it unambiguously. Does 55'ing take skill? Does WvK farming take skill? 600-smite teams? The UB team is resilient: you can afford mistakes. Is that how you define skill: how detrimental a single mistake can be?

None of the above really take skill to succeed in an area of Guild Wars. The most 55ing takes is consistency and area knowledge. I would say 55'ing takes more player capability than UB because of understanding how best to aggro and group mobs for faster zone clearance, and there is notable difference between the more known 55'ers and random ones.

Skill in Guild Wars is playing consistently at a competent level - high level PvP games aren't always decided by who played better but by who made more mistakes. UB allows mistakes to go unnoticed - compensating for player skill far more than most other options (except possibly Save Yourselves).

[draxynnic]

Originally Posted by Orinn

The whole problem with the idea of taking more skill is that enough communication can compensate for skill. Can you take a SF elementalist, give him vent, and talk him through what s/he needs to do? Is that person playing skilfully?

After a few runs, I'll bet that player would stop needing to have to be talked through it and will learn to handle it by themselves. This is one of the fundamental bases of the student-teacher relationship.

Once they've mastered SF, you can graduate them onto some other elementalist builds, or start talking them through a different profession entirely. Keep this up for long enough, with someone who's willing to learn, and sooner or later you'll probably get at least a moderately skilled player who can start to put together their own builds.

Does Ursan do something similar? Not really, except perhaps in learning timing for Roar and Force.

Originally Posted by manitoba

Nope it. No degen where I'm talking about

I don't see any denial about Spirit Shackles...

Originally Posted by manitoba

Thats the point UB is not overpowered on its own. Its when you add all the others to it then the mass effect is overpowered.

It's overpowered enough that people with 5 bears would rather take another bear than something else. I don't think even SF has people seriously saying that 6 SFs and two monks is better than an (even slightly) more balanced build.

[Div]

After glancing through this thread, I find it pretty sad that people get rejected from teams because they don't have UB (or if their Norn title is only level 4 or something). UB is merely a skill that transforms your skillbar into a very easy to run bar with fairly powerful skills. As I've mentioned in another thread, UB is only game breaking because most players run trash bars (and many are probably not skilled enough to handle "good" bars). It turns your Joe Wammo into a better tank and an actual damage dealing source.

While I think it's good to have a noob-friendly skill such as this, in the long run, it just seems to impair character development. Why bother learning how to play a class effectively when you can UB your way through everything? As it is right now, no one but monks really needs to play their own class. Is this healthy for the game, probably not. Is it helping bad players get through tough areas, sure. That's the tradeoff Anet has to make if they ever decide to balance this skill.

In conclusion, UB is a strong skill for turning bad or average players into seemingly decent players, but it basically impedes their ability to develop into good players, because of the simplicity of the build (aka mashing 1234 on recharge).

[Ensign]

These quotes are good.

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

A further issue is that, at some level, balance is needed even in PvE. A game that anyone can 'play' with no effort ceases to be a meaningful game. This is why you can't make great games by catering to the lowest common denominator. An obvious test here would be to consider what would happen to GW if we simply made all monsters in all areas lvl1, and have them all drop great loot all the time - how many people would still be playing a month from now?

Originally Posted by draxynnic

First, and this is a general thing with PvE skills and titles: They do, if not destroy, at least significantly weaken the GW premise of skill over grind through the introduction of a slapped on, even-more-grindy-than-the-traditional* levelling system.

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Currently, however, using the bear seems to simply be a case of "go bear. Ignore the rest of your bar. Kill everything" - which takes away all of the skill's potential flavour.

Originally Posted by cebalrai

URSAN STRIKE - This is 126 damage that BYPASSES ARMOR and attacks at full spell range. It also recharges in 3 seconds. It counts as 2 strikes which means when you use it your energy actually increases (which is key for blessings). Holy crap!

Think of it this way... Assume you're fighting a common 100 armor target. You'd need to have a 252-damage armor-hitting attack to match Ursan Strike. And your 252-damage attack would need to be able to fire twice in four seconds. This skill is unmatched in all of GW.

Originally Posted by cebalrai

GW isn't about progressing in levels. It's not about progressing in loot. It's not about finishing the relatively short campaigns. It's all about progressing in skill. Take that away and what's left?

Originally Posted by Faer

Actually, I think it's more about how some people want the game to not suck, while other people don't care as long as they get phat lewtz.

That is all.

[trobinson97]

The are also good:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I can't help but wonder if people compare PvE skills to normal skills too much though when it comes to skill balancing? They are, after all, meant to make PvE easier for those who want it to be so. I can count the number of PvE skills I want to use on less than half a hand, and only then because they're fun. I prefer my own builds and wont use most PvE skills simply because they're there.

Originally Posted by Atomos

Meh, i don't care if people use it or not.

Originally Posted by Divine Envoy

The initial expression I got from reading this thread was really just a minority claiming that one of the pve-only elite skills is being overpowered, and therefore, it is morally right to "balance it" for the sake of the community. The question is, is it really rational to act morally?

Initially, hard mode was introduced for players to have a challenge in the game, but more importantly, to have fun. Although this idea sounds very exciting, how many of us really have the time to enjoy this new idea, despite the fact that we have exams that stress us, the responsibility we have for our family members, and even the wives we have who would bite us for playing too much Guild Wars, along with the fact most of us has to solo these difficult areas with heroes and henches. Truly, the population of people who can actually enjoy hard mode was and has always been a minority.

Now with the new introduction of the new pve-only skills, some of us can finally enjoy the facinating gameplay of hard mode. Hard mode is no longer an exclusive mania for hardcore players; of course, hard mode still provides its difficulties, but it no longer consumes the lengthy amount of time we have to beat each area. Isn't that better?

Most people's arguements here are rather invalid. What they are saying is basically they find the skill Ursan Blessing to be overpowered, and they do not enjoy it, and thus they assume it's best for it to be nerfed for the sake of the community. Truly, it was just an assumption, which is incorrect by the way, notice how many of us are actually in favor of keeping the skill the way it is. The answer to the question, is it rational to act morally is clear: it was never rational to act morally, because the so-called moral is only people's opinion, and it should not have the right to speak for the rest of the community.

Originally Posted by RezzDoGG

I don't see any reason to have any PvE title skills nerfed... especially blessings. If something is too easy, just go into Hard Mode? It seems they set the PvE skills into place so they won't be changed again...ever. heh.

Originally Posted by JeniM

I don't use UB
Don't really like it
Lots of people DO like it
They have fun with it
Doesn't bother me
Helps them
Leave it be

Other good stuff:

Ractoh:I play a paragon using Focused Anger and Save Yourselves! (which really needs a hit too) and even though it's the most imbalanced thing PvE wise I am still subject to a lot of common shutdown seen in most mobs.

Trobinson97: You guys plays what you call "imbalanced builds" then complain about them being imbalanced and needing to be nerfed. What the ****? Why does this really need to be nerfed, and if it does, why do you continue to use it? Is it that reaching argument that you want to use the best combination of skills for a given task? If that's so, why would you want it to not work as good? Also, if you really want something that doesn't work as well, then why not just use another build? I can't even comprehend the selfishness of a person to want everyone to not have fun just because you just can't decide to stop using (and complaining about for Pete's sake) your "imbalanced" build.

Originally Posted by Simath

The majority of teams I have seen in DoA are purely Ursanway and the reason it will become the way to play is because it turns DoA (one of the games most elite areas) into a playground for anyone with Ursan Blessing. So when the elite areas in the game become simply a joke we should just watch and wait a month until it's no longer worth setting foot there?

Those are his real thoughts, he doesn't want you getting his phat lewt. The challenge isn't the issue here now is it? It's the loot being being "worth it".

Originally Posted by Simath

When an elite area becomes a children's playground there is something wrong there. It was made elite for a reason, if it was meant to have just anyone rampage through it they would have made it that way in the first place.

Note that with a FA+SY Para backing you up, DoA is rampageable. Now moving on, all you scrub nobodies listen up:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Understand this, we choose not to use said skill, but we don't think scrub nobodies should be able to succeed beacause of said poorly designed skills either

On the current state of balance in PvE:

WhickeyJack:It seem's as though you are implying that balance is relevant to PvE, a-net thinks differently, just look at the nerf's to some sunspear skill's

Trobinson97:No doubt you mean that I am implying that balance is irrelevant to PvE. Using your exact argument, if I were implying that I'd tell you to look at the PvE only skills and consumables from EotN.

Originally Posted by Trobinson97

The balance issue is a facade to hide the fact that their egos are the ONLY things being ruined here. PvE is sirrus (serious) binness(business) apparently.

Only about 3 pages of a 12+ page thread, one thread of about 3 on this subject.

[Crom The Pale]

Originally Posted by Avarre

Skill in Guild Wars is playing consistently at a competent level - high level PvP games aren't always decided by who played better but by who made more mistakes. UB allows mistakes to go unnoticed - compensating for player skill far more than most other options (except possibly Save Yourselves).

Skill is tied to PvP, always has been and always will be.

PvE is not about a players skill as much as the time a player takes to learn how to beat each and every map he comes across. Since the foes never change its just a matter of time till you find a build that can conqure the zone.

The only real impact PvE skills and consumables has on player skill is if a person uses thes in PvE then jumps into PvP where he/she is forced to come up with new builds without them.

[Iuris]

I don't like the idea of a single skill being the best in the game, so in principle I think UB should be taken down a notch.

However, I also don't like even the idea of an elite area. I want to explore all areas and do all quests without having to stick to a very specific class and build. (DoA grouping horror completely discouraged me from trying to get the quest chain done).

So, UB is here a solution to the problem. Do not take it out unless you make the areas accessible.

[manitoba1073]

Originally Posted by draxynnic

After a few runs, I'll bet that player would stop needing to have to be talked through it and will learn to handle it by themselves. This is one of the fundamental bases of the student-teacher relationship.

Once they've mastered SF, you can graduate them onto some other elementalist builds, or start talking them through a different profession entirely. Keep this up for long enough, with someone who's willing to learn, and sooner or later you'll probably get at least a moderately skilled player who can start to put together their own builds.

Does Ursan do something similar? Not really, except perhaps in learning timing for Roar and Force.



I don't see any denial about Spirit Shackles...



It's overpowered enough that people with 5 bears would rather take another bear than something else. I don't think even SF has people seriously saying that 6 SFs and two monks is better than an (even slightly) more balanced build.

Nope no spirit shackles. Just PM I'll take you there lol

[Skuld]

Are you actually quoting yourself now trobinson97? :-/

[trobinson97]

Originally Posted by Skuld

Are you actually quoting yourself now trobinson97? :-/

As tempting as it may be for you guys to post otherwise, the thread isn't about me. :-/

[Skuld]

You guys? I'm a bystanding lurker!